Built Environment Matters

Accelerating MMC adoption in Australia with Martin Fenn from PT Blink in conversation with Adam Jordan and Simon McCarthy from Bryden Wood

• Bryden Wood • Season 1 • Episode 24

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What is the current state of MMC adoption in Australia and what can be done to accelerate it? How can we best apply the lessons from overseas, particularly looking at the experience in the UK?

Adam Jordan, Asia-Pacific Lead at Bryden Wood, talks to Martin Fenn, Director of Integration at PT Blink and MMC Lead for the CIOB Oceania. They are joined by Simon McCarthy, Principal Structural Engineer from Bryden Wood.

We'll be discussing some of the most important topics in the construction industry, and examining the state of play in both the UK and Australia. Tune in to learn more about The Value Toolkit, moving offsite, the role of government and our environmental goals.


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To learn more about Bryden Wood's Design to Value philosophy, visit www.brydenwood.com. You can also follow Bryden Wood on LinkedIn and X.

Adam Jordan:

Hello everyone, and welcome to this edition of Built environment Matters, the Bryden Wood podcast. I'm Adam Jordan, Asia-Pacific Lead for Bryden Wood, and heading up Bryden Wood's new office in Australia, newly launched this year. This month we're very pleased to be joined by Martin Fenn, Director of integration at PT Blink, a Sydney based Construction Technology company operating in both Australia and the US. He is also THEC lead for the Chartered Institute of Building, Oceania. Martin's role is to help his clients innovate their developments, expand local supply chains, and optimize value by enhancing both offsite and onsite processes. With a background in carpentry and joinery, Martin has over 20 years experience in the construction industry in the UK, New Zealand and Australia. Experienced in leading innovative projects using a variety of offsite typologies, Martin is also a passionate advocate of sustainability. Martin has recently returned from a trip to the UK where he visited facilities and attended conferences to see what new ideas could be brought back to Australia. Thanks for joining us Martin.

Martin Fenn:

Thank you Adam.

Adam Jordan:

And we also have a double bill this month, which is very exciting because we're also joined by Simon McCarthy, our Principal Structural Engineer for Bryden Wood. Newly joined our Australian office and based in Melbourne. Commenced working at Bryden Wood at the beginning of August. Simon has over 25 years experience specialising in the design of low to medium rise buildings in the residential, commercial, health, educational, industrial, and defense sectors. Simon has developed a specialty in the design of multi-story permanent modular buildings using DfMA, lean and offsite construction techniques. He has been engaged as a technical advisor on several government initiatives for the implementation of Modern Methods of Construction, and contributed to the recently released offsite construction guide by the Office of Projects, Victoria. Simon also delivered a presentation on digital engineering platform design at the prefabAUS Conference in Brisbane earlier this month on behalf of Bryden Wood. Welcome Simon. Thanks for joining us.

Simon McCarthy:

Thank you.

Adam Jordan:

So for this month's podcast, I'm really keen to discuss the current state of MMC adoption in Australia. At Bryden Wood, we've been leading this trend in the UK for quite a long time, and here in Australia it's a new, exciting market for us. But there's certainly a lot of progress that's been made in MMC and DfMA adoption over the last years. So we've made a lot of progress in Australia, but there's probably a long way to go. What can we do to accelerate it? How can we best apply some of the lessons from overseas and particularly from the UK experience. Martin, as I said before, you've recently returned from the UK. What's your impression of the state of play over there?

Martin Fenn:

Very impressed Adam. I went to the Offsite Expo. I visited a few offsite manufacturing facilities in both England and Scotland and look, I suppose overall I was very impressed with the amount of collaboration that I saw over there. There's very much more of a structured and cohesive approach to the delivery of Modern Methods of Construction over there. Not only is Modern Methods of Construction separated into various categories, rather than just given a generic offsite construction title, there just seems a more innovative approach to construction. It feels like, there's the evolutionary change towards MMC has certainly taken place, and I feel it's moved on from just pure MMC. It's now people. The hot topic is decarbonisation using MMC to address net zero carbon targets. Address skill shortages, address the evolution from artisan trades into manufacturing operatives. It was certainly eyeopening to see how much more advanced the industry is than over here in Australia.

Adam Jordan:

So, what's the driver for that fundamental difference do you think the UK has different drivers or the productivity gap is more severe than in Australia? Or do you think maybe the government is just being much more proactive at supporting these initiatives?

Martin Fenn:

I think it's a combination of things. I definitely saw very much a proactive government there who were embracing MMC, setting targets, setting delivery targets for developments with set percentages or set pre-manufactured values, but also, you know, potentially the geography of the UK assists with offsite construction with the advancement of that. It's a very small country, you know, something like 32 times smaller than Australia with a significantly larger population. So perhaps it's condensed more into a smaller area. There's also the weather to consider. You know, it's much, up until recently, a much wetter, colder environment, you know, one, one interesting facts I learned about in Scotland is there's actually only two months of the year where you could really lay blocks. So there's been a, a move as a result of the weather more towards timber construction, for example. So perhaps the combination of, you know, a proactive government whether geography has sort of advanced offsite construction and the uptake of it. And perhaps, you know, it's locality close to Europe, for example, where there is, you know, in other countries there's a widespread adoption of offsite construction.

Adam Jordan:

There's a great mindset in the UK that Australia is this paradise of perfect weather, but it's not always true, actually. I think we have more and more extreme weather events. We have bush fires, we have heat, we've had flooding in New South Wales quite a lot, and El Niño or La Niña continuing year after year. What do you think, Simon? Are lost time impacts due to weather events a big deal in Australia and does DfMA or MMC have an opportunity to alleviate that?

Simon McCarthy:

Yeah, absolutely. There's a presentation I saw last month where it was revealed in the first six months of this year in Sydney, which would actually be our biggest economy that there was 70 rain days. So if you, you've got approximately 180 work days in the six months, you've got 70 rain days. That's over a third of the work days for lost due rain in, in the one state. So there's definitely an opportunity there for offsite construction to reap back some of that time that could be done in the factory. Obviously there's some earthworks that can't be stalled, but there's no reason why parts of the building that can be manufactured offsite, be done at the same time as the earthworks are being done or being stored due to rain. So the, the uptake in offsite construction is definitely something that more and more builders need to look at, not just in New South Wales, but you're right in Victoria we've had some big issues with the bush fires and extreme heat. And the same in Queensland as well.

Adam Jordan:

So you've had a long experience, Simon, in Australia and the industry, and particularly working with Victorian government. Martin's talked a bit about the UK government context. Do you think the Australian governments are doing what they should be doing to support MMC adoption, or do you think they could be doing more.

Simon McCarthy:

I do. The big advantage that they have in the UK is a central government and that means that there's a lot less coordination that needs to happen. So what we're finding in Australia at the moment is that Victoria is going one direction. New South Wales is going one direction. They're both talking about DfMA or MMC, but they're both taking a different approach and don't seem to be really talking to each other or sharing that knowledge between the two of them. There is a lot of interest in what's happening in the UK and Europe, parts of Asia and of course America. Victoria appears to be leading the way. So about five years ago, they had a permanent modular skill building program, which was a hundred permanent modular skill buildings, and that increased the, the number of offsite fabricators who specialized in this area from about four or five to 16 in those four years. And just recently the, the Victorian government has released their offsite construction guideline for a lot of their departments and developers, if they wish, to start utilising the knowledge that is already there. In New South Wales, school's infrastructure appear to be leading the way as well. They've done a comprehensive study over the last couple of years leading with their own DfMA design guideline for their schools. That seems to be developing beyond the volumetric and kit of parts and towards an integrated approach and platform based approach. It's still in the early days, but the progress in the interest in Modern Methods of Construction is definitely there. And just recently Queensland as well with their homes in Queensland. There's been a recent expression of interest released to find out how they can utilize the market to to get Modern Methods of Construction as an approach towards building more affordable and social housing.

Adam Jordan:

You mentioned platform approaches there. I'll just touch on that briefly. And in the UK, P-DfMA or a platform approach to DfMA is a hot topic, and it's something that Bryden Wood have been very close to the development of the theory and in practice with The Forge in Southbank commercial project with Landsec. Platform approach to DfMA goes beyond individual project based pre-fabrication, and starts to look more at whole frameworks of projects or even multi-sector application of standardised components across schools and hospitals and prisons and all sorts of different types of projects to deliver much greater economy of scale and much greater benefits to both the public and private sectors. Martin, did you see much evidence of a platform approach to DfMA being more widely adopted or embraced in the UK while you were over there? And how does the platform design philosophy particularly align with you in your role at PTBlink?

Martin Fenn:

Yeah, look so with PT Blink, you know, the way we create buildings is through a component based platform delivery model. In the UK, I certainly saw the appetite for a platform delivery, it was definitely a hot topic at some of the conferences that I went to. There were a lot of people talking about it. Look, I met, for example, with Easi Space who were part of the, the Forge and went to see their, their factory. Really impressive stuff. Whether it's through my work with PT Blink or what I saw in the UK, and you know, what I've learned through attending the various webinars on the platform rule book is that a component based platform approach is certainly a way to help engage the SMEs, to engage the full market local manufacturing. You know, we, we will certainly see smaller companies rise, the rise of startups. Because really they can do a repeat component and that component can be a small part of the build, but it enables those smaller manufacturers to get engaged into the supply chain rather than just a few big players producing, you know, 60% of the building, whatever they can produce, a small percentage of the building. So in terms of a sort of socioeconomical advantages, I feel that. It's been that component based platform delivery model has certainly been recognised by government, by industry as engaging the whole supply chain into this delivery model. So yeah, it, it was great to see how, I suppose, advanced the mindset in the UK of that form of delivery whereas, as Simon touched on, we are seeing some state governments and all that recognise it, but it's still very, very, very early stages over here.

Adam Jordan:

Thanks Martin. You mentioned Easi Space and some smaller SMEs and innovation and kind of fostering that innovative thinking among fabricators and smaller suppliers is really a driver for change and improvement in, in MMC and we've definitely seen that in the UK. Do you think that the construction ecosystem in Australia is really set up to support that? Is it set up in the right way? Do we have the right blend of SMEs and main contractors? Or do you think that there needs to be a shift in the way that we treat construction projects? It would be good to get both of your views on this, maybe starting with Martin.

Martin Fenn:

Yeah. I think at the moment the supply chain is quite immature. You know, we're seeing a lot of the offsite construction projects or the, the projects delivered through offsite construction. A lot of them have been volumetric. We are seeing a shift towards more panelised as well, and a kit of parts but I think that evolution from volumetric modules to components and components supplied by a variety of suppliers, not just one supplier. Is certainly evolving over here, but it's nowhere near advanced as the UK. We kind of need a shift in mindset as well. I feel. The smaller companies aren't set up so well to deliver through this methodology. We've also gotta look at procurement, a lot of the typical DNC design and construct contracts don't necessarily enable the SMEs to deliver through this sort of methodology. You know particularly when you look at payment for offsite materials and the like. So in order to enable the platform approach, there needs to be a holistic change in the way we deliver construction projects. So from, I suppose, a mindset using smaller. Multiple smaller suppliers as well as the procurement as well through, you know, different contracting methodologies as well.

Simon McCarthy:

You've also got the, the Construction Innovation Hub which was a collaboration between builders, designers integrators, you, you name it. And it had everyone from tier four to tier one builders. It had small architectural firms, large architectural firms, small engineering firms, large engineering firms, and everyone felt heard. And the result of that are, are two main reports. One of them is the Value Toolkit in how to Design to Value. And the other one is the Platform Rulebook. So when people say what is a platform, it actually shows you what a platform is intended to do and how to actually incorporate that during the design process. And we need something like that in Australia that the platform system will work here. It it really will and it will get rid of a lot of the stigma that comes with offsite construction. What is a kit of parts? Modular only means you can go to a modular fabricator that's not right anymore. The platform system brings everyone into play and increases that supply chain. Exactly what Martin is talking about. It's that ability that everyone has been heard, looking how's is it done? It 's right there for you.

Martin Fenn:

Yeah. So on that further to your point, Simon, the, the Platform Rulebook is great because it outlines the key principles, the rules, et cetera, that enable a, a platform delivery. And then, you know, with the va, the value toolkit I think is a great document because, you know, it, it helps define value. I think the construction industry has been stuck in this time warp of lowest price, maximum risk transfer being the awarded tender. And, you know, the Value Toolkit assists with defining value. And I think that's critical because one project in one area will have a different definition of value to want to a different project in a different area. So I think you, you're dead right there. I think other countries need to sort of emulate the UK with the Construction Innovation Hub with documents like the Value Toolkit, the Platform Rulebook to help guide industry.

Simon McCarthy:

With the, the value toolkit, it goes to show that both in the UK and Australia, one thing we have in common is that we're not building enough, especially homes. You know, we we're both on a rush to build hospitals but we're also both way behind on building homes. And with that shift in mind shift, we need everyone to appreciate that if you miss out on this job, you can win the next. You're going to win a project down the track. And the way to do that is to build in value, value from the very start all the way through to construction with good quality construction, right through to the end. Remove those defects. And that's exactly what the New South Wales Building Commissioner is doing now, monitoring that, giving the builders and the designers a star rating so that the public have access to this and can see that quality and value start right from the very beginning of the building process.

Adam Jordan:

It's interesting in my experience, and I'm sure in in, in your guys day to day job as well, we often get asked questions. What is a kit of parts? I think you said before, Simon. What is a part? What is DfMA? Why would I do it? What's in it for me? Do you think there really is an understanding in Australia of what these terms mean and what value looks like and the drivers for change? Or do you think that there's a knowledge gap in the market there.

Simon McCarthy:

No, no. There, there's a big knowledge gap and the whole industry, especially the big governing bodies like Engineers Australia and the Australian Institute of Architects have a lot to do to educate their designers on what those actually mean. Because from the design process that gets passed onto the builders and the builders also need to get educated into what platform and kit of parts. And, and panelisation actually means. The Australian Institute of Architects had a feedback study last year, the end of last year, where around about 43% of their clients are requesting more information on Modern Methods of Construction because they've heard about it, they don't understand themselves what it is, but they do understand that it means better end result for them and better return on investment.

Adam Jordan:

And what do you think the benefits actually are? We've talked a little bit about productivity and the productivity gap. We've talked about sustainability and, and decarbonisation, which is increasingly a hot topic in Australia as well. I think issues like obviously cost savings are there to be had and, and speed of delivery on site is, there to be had. What about safety and designing for safety and planning better? Health and safety in construction. What about the wellbeing of construction site operatives? What about what about other efficiencies? Do you, do you think there's a common understanding of the full scope of benefits that are available, martin?

Martin Fenn:

Yeah. Look you touched on safety. That's a, a good one and a big one. In construction, in undercover construction, construction and shared factory construction is typically much safer, but we're also, seeing innovation, take hold. Like I was really impressed to see the Offsite Expo. You'll see some of the floor cassettes by a company called Kiss House, and they'd pre-installed edge protection in the factory. So they'd thought about safety before they'd even even got to sites. Now the other thing I'd like to add about safety is wellbeing and suicide in construction. You know, we are seeing in countries like the UK, you know, things like a worker a day being lost. You know, in Australia I think it's every other day a construction worker's lost through suicide. And you know, some of the statistics that exist are eye watering with like your 53% more likely to die through suicide at a construction worker than any other industry. And you know, it, it's really the, the embedded issues with our industry. We're seeing that it, you know, it's high risk. It's typically long working hours, people working in, in, you know, different parts of the country. And through offsite construction, we're seeing wellbeing being addressed, you know factory workers going to the same factory day in, day out, having a set routine, a set work schedule, not having to work interstate, not having to travel long distances. But we're also seeing that that shift in procurement, you know, typically construction is , is a male dominated industry associated with a very, very adversarial. Contracting model. And we're seeing, you know, with through MMC that that contracting model is evolving to be less adversarial. We're seeing contracting models that engage the supply chain much earlier.

Adam Jordan:

Martin, these wellbeing issues that you raise are really critical. I think every life saved, every life improved in construction is really important. It's all, it's almost the most important issue that there is. You mentioned KISS House with the built-in edge protection for us in Bryden Wood, we are very happy to have been a part of that project and that was a very digitally driven project. So we were able to design those DfMA components and from a very early stage, think about the method statement and think about how that edge protection needed to be incorporated. I know PT Blink is also a digital technology company, so across the whole industry we're seeing a lot of overlap between MMC and DfMA adoption and digitization. The knowledge and the advanced kind of planning that you can get out of digital really lends itself to thinking about construction methodology earlier on and how value can be improved. Do you think that there is a link between digital and DfMA, Martin, and do you think this is an opportunity maybe for Australia to take a few giant steps forward?

Martin Fenn:

Yeah, definitely massive. Look for me, I've come from a trade base and now I'm into a technology space. I believe the, the one of the biggest advantages we are gonna see through this transformation into the digital world is that reduction in human error. I think the construction industry has been plagued and will be continued to be plagued with human error. I think as well, collaboration, you know, to have one platform that everyone inputs into, takes data from as well. And we're definitely seeing, you know, Australia is advancing with digitisation. We're certainly seeing that. And the other thing I'd like to say is through digitisation is touching on, you know, what the safety point that we, we've all talked about, you know, One thing I've seen on projects is, you know, that handrail, that edge protection and all that never existed until we sat down with the entire team, the entire project team and someone in the corner piped up. When we are going through the simulation, we're going through the model. Someone in the corner piping up, Hey guys, you realise we need to connect onto something? Or how are you gonna stop us falling when we are putting this together and then, Edge protection or that handrail being designed in before we've built it. And that handrail or edge protection hasn't had to be installed due to someone falling. Do you know what I mean? So just those few items alone add significant advantages to the way we're gonna be building and the like now and in the future. So, you know, I could talk for hours about digitisation, I think we can definitely other countries where they've embraced digitization to improve construction delivery.

Adam Jordan:

I mean, it's clear that in, in Australia, we're making great progress and every day, every month, every year is, is some new exciting stuff and some new exciting opportunities coming out of the conversation is changing very fast, but it's also clear we've got a lot of way to. And maybe things need to speed up. Maybe things need to improve even faster. What do you think, Simon? What, what's the catalyst for change? Should government policy be changing to, to fast track this adoption? I, I think government policy is already there and the two biggest states, Survey Victoria has already released their Victorian digital asset strategy. I know New South Wales have done a similar thing. Sydney is actually building its second major international airport. And the township that's being built with that airport is going, apparently going to be a digital twin. So that's certainly in the right direction. So I think the, the main holding back is designers actually seeing the investment in doing that and building owners seeing the investment in allowing for their buildings to be modeled in 3D in high quality high l o D type models and utilizing 3D 4D for the program, 5D for the cost all the way through to using that digital twin, monitoring the building over the whole life cycle. So it really comes down to the private sector as well as the government industry, seeing the opportunities and maybe starting to lead the charge and also down to clients, I guess, demanding it and, and maybe demanding better service and better value from, from the industry. Martin, in your role also as the Oceania MMC chair as CIO B do you think that industry bodies like the CIOB have a role to play?

Martin Fenn:

Yeah, certainly I think by sharing knowledge, by assisting governments with policy, with assisting with legislation. But one of the things, you know, we, we've discussed before is, you know, really helping to educate those entering the market , you know, students, for example, in the universities. Because if we, if we look towards those towards the students, those students eventually will be the leaders of industry. So if we can start them off on the right footing, educating them, sharing the knowledge, that's about I think they can really help improve, you know, the construction industry for the now, but also for the future.

Adam Jordan:

Sharing knowledge and collaborating is such a laudable goal. And openness and transparency I think is really important to facilitating this fast track adoption. Simon, do you think Australian companies are holding IP to personal interests they're just.

Simon McCarthy:

They are, absolutely. But there, there's also studies that are coming out to show that parametric and generic modeling, both in Australia and the UK is increased. The knowledge of it, the capability of it and the knowledge sharing of it is getting better and better, but it's only very recent that that's actually happening. We have an aging workforce. We don't have enough students coming through universities and TAFE colleges to train up. Martin's absolutely spot on about training those students in the junior professionals type skill them ready for the future. And I, I think the smarter that we actually. Working, design and construction we're not gonna be lagging behind with more and more people going homeless.

Adam Jordan:

One last question for Martin. Do you think that the federal government should be doing more in Australia? We've heard quite a lot tonight about the states and we are a very a state based country, but do you think we need more federal leadership? Do you think something like a National Construction innovation hub in Australia would be a good idea?

Martin Fenn:

I think it would definitely to have some, some sort of central government lead. But look, let's face it, let's face reality for that to happen to break through all the various states. It may be a, a huge task for that to happen, certainly in the short term. So it may be that we have certain states, Leading by example and the other states following the lead, and certainly that collaboration and knowledge share across the states. Could in the short term, fulfill what a centralised federal, state construction innovation hub would fulfill. But you know, as Simon said earlier, certainly in the UK there isn't that separation of the states as there is here and also in, in the us. So, Yeah, maybe it's putting the competition out there with the various states. So one, one state can lead the charge and the others will follow.

Adam Jordan:

we just keep circling back to this. Same comment of collaboration and knowledge sharing between states between countries, between the UK and Australia, for example, between companies and the private sector and with the public sector and with universities, with students, and with research partners and with everybody in the construction industry sharing more, I think it's a vision we can all get. Thanks for sharing, guys. It's been a really great discussion. I think there's been a lot of interesting insights, and I hope everyone listening in found that as interesting as I did. Thank you Martin, and thank you Simon. Pleasure. Thanks guys. Thank you. Thank you to all the listeners for listening, and please join us again for the next edition of Built Environment Matters.

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