Built Environment Matters

Part 1: Professor Jacqui Glass from The Bartlett, UCL's Built Environment Faculty in conversation with Board Director Jaimie Johnston on our construction podcast

• Bryden Wood • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Part 1: This month, Board Director Jaimie Johnston talks to Professor Jacqui Glass from The Bartlett, UCL’s Faculty of the Built Environment. They explore the relationship between academia, industry and research, as well as Jacqui’s role as Lead of The Transforming Construction Network Plus (N+).

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Hello, welcome to Built Environment Matters, a monthly podcast brought to you by Bryden Wood, an international company of technologists, designers, architects, engineers and analysts working for a better built environment. Bryden Wood, believe in Design to Value to cut carbon, drive efficiency, save time, make beautiful places, and build a better future.

Jaimie Johnston:

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Built Environment Matters, the Bryden Wood podcast. I'm Jaimie Johnston, Head of Global Systems and this time I am joined by Jacqui Glass who's Professor of Construction Management at University College London. Hi, Jacqui.

Jacqui Glass:

Hi, Jaimie, how are you?

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah, very good. It's great to see you again. I think you are one of the last people I saw professionally before lockdown. I think I saw you at Futurebuild in 2020. February,

Jacqui Glass:

feels like a long time ago, doesn't it?

Jaimie Johnston:

It was a very long time ago. So yeah, it's gonna be you know, we'll catch up on what you've been doing in the meantime. But first, perhaps, for those who aren't aware of your work, perhaps you can describe your current role, and a bit about yourself?

Jacqui Glass:

Sure, so I'm an academic, I work at University College London, I'm in The Bartlett, Faculty of the Built Environment, which I think most of our listeners probably have heard of. Now, the interesting thing about the role that I have, of course, is your academic roles are all jolly interesting and fulfilling. But the nature of construction, of course, means that I have the opportunity to engage in lots of fascinating and interesting conversations with industry as part of our research. So you know, Jaimie, my background is actually in construction products and sustainability actually going back many years, from when I did my PhD in concrete. And not everybody can say that, to be fair. But you know, I've gone through research on sustainability, off site construction. And only the other day I was thinking back to it was over 20 years ago, when I wrote a report for what was then DTR, on, essentially off site construction for housing. So I guess I've been in this sort of transformation of construction space for quite a long time now.

Jaimie Johnston:

So I didn't know that, that's interesting. How many of the recommendations you made are still current, or how many of the actions that you said we should do is still still haven't been done from that from that report?

Jacqui Glass:

Well, it's interesting, because we, in that report, we looked at, we looked around Europe, actually, at different examples of house building construction. And, you know, some of the technologies that we're seeing on site in the UK today really do mirror some of the technologies that we were seeing then in in places like Scandinavia, and Germany. So I think there has been a gradual take up in the housing market in particular. But of course, you know, my work nowadays, also covers lots of other building types as well.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah. Yeah. So I was gonna ask you taught you, you've moved between industry, government, government bodies, academia, you've probably seen more, or you've looked at this through more lenses and lots of other people. And you've probably got a greater understanding of the kind of the ways that people are looking through this, perhaps you can sort of talk about that, and how all those things, particularly, you know, over the last few years, I've had more intersection between maybe government and private sector and academia. So how those things are starting to intersect where they intersect, and whether there's more of an overlap now than maybe they used to be or not?

Jacqui Glass:

Well, where to start with that one. Fascinating.

Jaimie Johnston:

So it's a slightly long winded question. But

Jacqui Glass:

No, it's but it's a very fair question. And, you know, one of the one of the real highlights, I suppose, in the career that I've had, is that the work I've been doing has been very close to industry. I've never been anybody you know, I've never been an academic who is sort of only looking at books and only looking at theory, I've always tried to sort of step between, what does the theory tell us? And what is actually happening in the real world? And how can we, how can we help one another? So if you think about, you know, my entire career has been based on that sort of ethos is the conversation between practice, policy and scholarly work if you like, now, a few years ago, I was, well, what a wonderful opportunity to lead The Transforming Construction Network Plus (N+), as part of the, you know, industrial strategy investments in our sector. And one of the nice things about it was this very clear ambition to bring academic voices into the transforming construction space to accompany industry on its journey. And so in leading that program, which we're coming towards a close now, actually, one of the things that we've been super interested in is exactly how do we curate and support those conversations between universities and industry so that they both benefit. And this is a constant challenge for us. Because we work in different ways, we think, in different ways. And you're absolutely right, Jaimie, when you talk about looking at construction, with through different, you know, through different lenses through different perspectives, and it's very important. It's interesting, you know, my original degree was architecture, of course. But then my PhD went more towards construction, I worked in civil engineering departments. And actually, one of the things we often talk about is this appreciation that one needs to have of the different vocabularies at work in the industry, the different agendas. And so really, you do need this kind of multidisciplinary foundation to actually be able to start having these sort of conversations between different groups. And so where we are right now with our research is that we can I think, be a little bit more challenging, and a little bit more constructive in the way that we're hosting those conversations.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah, do you see, I want to come back to the the language thing, actually, because I often find that the semantics sort of get in the way of the of the meaning. Is there what's the, it's probably a very hard question to answer the lag time, I guess, between a sort of something happening in academia and then starting to be adopted into then becoming a sort of a normal thing. So you probably got a better sense of that than anyone else I know given that you've, you know, you've been in this world for a long time, as you say, you know, you've wrote the thing on housing 20 years ago, you must be able to see what you know, the implications? Are we getting quicker at doing it as well? Are we starting to get, you know, less of a lag time between, you know, academia, discovering something, and it making a meaningful impact in industry?

Jacqui Glass:

I think it's, it's not quite as simple as this kind of chronological story. You know, we often think about academia and universities as these sort of closed scholarly halls where these amazing inventions come sort of pop out. And then industry is supposed to take them up. In vast number of subjects, it just doesn't work that way. So we talk about engaged scholarship, the idea that actually all along the journey all the way, you can have academics and industrialists working together and talking together. The really key thing here is to agree the aims and understand the differences from the outset. If you then can work together on a path, you're more likely to achieve, I think larger ambitions actually. And it's so interesting, if you look at, for example, the tier one contractors right now, and look at the different ways that they in engage with R&D, look at the different ways in which they're exploiting or not the R&D tax credit scheme. And I think that gives you a little bit of a sense of the attitudes towards academics as a potential collaborator. And one of the things we produce recently from the Transforming Construction Network Plus (N+), is a short digest, to try to help people if you like, on both sides of the fence. I don't like to think of it as a fence. But you know what I mean? So think, to try to have those people understand one another a little bit more effectively, so that we can have conversations about industry's needs, which are often short term, and academics' ambitions, which are actually often much longer term. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah. Is it we often end up on this podcast talking about looking outside of construction and other sectors. Is there is there is this sort of relationship between academia and industry? Is it I always assume it's a lot richer in aerospace, automotive and things. But I don't know that for a fact, I don't know whether you've got an experience of that, and whether constructions getting the hang of a thing, which other industries do well, which would, again, in my head, obvious sort of a green shoots of something that might grow that, you know, we're late to the party, but we're starting to get the hang of some of these things.

Jacqui Glass:

Well, I think we can learn things from other sectors. And I think there's been a lot of positive motivation to do so. And, do you know, from my perspective, though, it's kind of a flawed argument, because the way in which government in the UK particularly supports the different sectors and perceives the different sectors is so vastly different, that the funding and the institutional structures which underpin our different sectors is so different, that construction simply can't play on fair terms, if you like, with something like aerospace and manufacturing, we're just not considered by government in the same light. And that's not to say we haven't got policymakers who are extremely supportive of the of the sector, who absolutely understand the GDP contribution of the sector. But structurally, and investment wise, this is why people were so excited about the Transforming Construction Challenge. Because as I've explained to other people before, we have been extremely short of direct R&D investment for our sector, for a long time. So the challenge coming along, was a really big step forward and a recognition, which is why we need to make the most of it, I think,

Jaimie Johnston:

I remember talking about when this first came up? My again, I don't know this, because it's not my area of expertise. My understanding was, even though construction's massive compared to automotive and aerospace, it gets a tiny amount of attention, because we're so fragmented, and we don't speak with one voice. Whereas automotive and other manufacturing, they're very, very collaborative at a certain level, they kind of work together, they speak with one voice, they go to government, say, I want x billion pounds of funding to solve this problem, whether it's like batteries, or wings, or whatever it is, we'll do these things will propagate them, then we'll start to compete on how to implement them. And so because they're much more consistent and joined up, they have a much more direct relationship with construction, there is no as you know, better than anyone knows single voice. And yeah, I remember saying someone, this is our shot, this is our chance to join the top table and ask for money in a particular way, use it well demonstrate the benefits. And if we did that, well, actually, that will be the start of you know, potentially ongoing funding into these things. But we need to demonstrate the first one goes particularly well, before we can go back and ask the second one. So that really leads on to the I was gonna ask about Transforming Construction Network Plus (N+), if you can explain that for anyone who hasn't come across it and the sorts of things that you've been looking at, and the sorts of things that are coming out of that piece of work, because it's really interesting stuff that you've been, you've been up to over the last couple of years now, isn't it?

Jacqui Glass:

Yeah, that's right. And we started in 2018. And, you know, one of the things that we've been really committed to is ensuring that the academic community is best responding to where the industry well, wants to go, but importantly, needs to go in its in its development and transformation. So I think we've been a bit of a broker in that respect in trying to also help the academic community to understand respond and be doing appropriate sort of research to help. So we've been doing quite a lot of workshops, we've funded small projects in universities around the UK. And we're getting to the point now, where what we're trying to do is articulate their findings for business. And it's actually quite wide ranging. And that speaks to the purpose of the Transforming Construction Challenge anyway, because it covers digital aspects, energy manufacturing, construction, methodology, etc. So all of our small projects, all of our researchers have all been working on aspects of this. And they're going on and doing more work, collaborative work with other parties now working in healthcare working in housing. So it's we wanted it to be honest, Jaimie, we wanted it to be a sort of a catalyst for change. And I think, I think it's fair to say we, we've made some progress. And I'm really excited from the projects we've been doing around Digital Twin, we've been doing some really interesting work around what you might call prototypes for change, I suppose, within businesses, we've been looking very closely at business models. So I think what we're gradually be doing over the next I would say sort of six months to a year is gradually releasing that information out through various channels. And very, obviously very happy to help people to engage with it to talk through the implications, etc. But I guess I want to be clear that, you know, there's no one panacea. These are all, if you like, you know, stimuli, to think about your firm. Think about your business, wherever you are in the construction sector, wherever you are in the supply chain, or the value chain. However, we love semantics, don't we, however you wish to position and locate yourself within the sector, I think you'll find that in the Network Plus (N+) outcomes that you'll be seeing in the next year. There's something for most firms actually.

Jaimie Johnston:

So how many projects have there been in total? And how many how did you select them? And how many? How many did you turn down?

Jacqui Glass:

Oh, well, we funded 13. And we had a little core piece of research that we did ourselves. So I guess you could call it 14. We had 100 applications. A huge number of people stepped forward wanting to work in this space. And actually, we knew we couldn't support everybody. We just didn't have the budget for it. But we Had workshops, we've had direct contact with people who weren't successful, to help them to go on and find funding in other places as well.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah, it's fantastic. And you covered you said, you covered sort of all aspects from business models to digital twins. Can you sort of what's the what's the full breadth of? does it cover the entire sort of not quite ecosystem of the, say, project lifecycle, but it covers a whole range of things, perhaps you can sort of explain where all the buckets are that you've looked at?

Jacqui Glass:

Yeah, I don't think it was ever possible for us to cover everything. So what we were looking for in the projects was, was almost, if you like, the pinch points, the pressure points, the bet the pieces with the greatest potential, and, of course, the wild card projects, where we thought, wow, this has come completely as a curveball, it's got huge potential. And actually, so you know, just to give you a little flavor of that we have one project is looking at cooperative ways of building one project, which is looking at something slightly more conventional, perhaps sort of active energy systems for buildings and building group groups of buildings. We've got one, which is actually really trying to understand the challenges of that, you know, advance their manufacturing capabilities. What are the challenges that small business faces, and you know, that's small business has have been on our minds throughout this, because it's terribly easy with a big national program of funding, that you only think about the big firms, you only liaise with the big firms, and those voices that are well known. And actually, we want to, we really supported a number of projects, which were aimed at small businesses, and local innovation, regional innovation. You know, one of the really interesting projects for me was one based in Scotland, around different forms of housing and manufacturing, for housing. And the other one, which is really interesting as a sort of a, an integrating project, you might call it was, you might be surprised when I say this car parking. Actually, we have a lot of car park structures in the UK, we expect there to be more electric vehicles, we have people who want to access Wi Fi, and access local services through their phones. You know, car parks are a huge structure. And how can we use parking car parking in a much more integrated and digitally enabled way? That's probably not what you're expecting me to say today?

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah, no. That is, is that one of the wild card projects, because it's one of those you can imagine, get the bid and go. Alright, let's have a look. And then you open it go. This is really good. This is really, yeah,

Jacqui Glass:

yeah, we had that. Oh, hang on moment. This, this actually is super interesting.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah. So what's the what's the outcome of that? Or is it too soon to tell us what what the kind of the impact of that looks like? Or where does that one go? Because that's, that's fascinating. Actually,

Jacqui Glass:

all of our projects are just coming to a close right now. So what we're gradually doing is helping them to get their messages out. And that particular project is being supported by the British Parking Association. And we actually, we were able to release a small film through the B1M, about that particular project. So there's a resource there to give people a little bit more flavor. And I know the the project team are very committed to taking the work forward.

Jaimie Johnston:

I'm gonna have to Google that. I didn't even know there was a British Parking Association. There we go. I've learned something. Yeah, the the SME one sounds particularly interesting. Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this again, on the on the podcast, the sort of the long tail of construction, that actually a vast amount of the supply chain is very SME, it's very regional. How do you start to engage them with everything that's happening to go in it? Yeah, is one of my particular interest around this stuff, again, on platforms are saying, Well, how can we gear these things to lower the barrier of entry to tap into existing supply chain existing capabilities? How do we make sure that we bring those people that you don't need a sort of in 100 million pound investment in a manufacturing facility to play in this space? So yeah, that sounds really positive, actually, that things like that are starting to, to characters or anything else you can say about that, or whatever, we have to wait for the sort of findings to come out?

Jacqui Glass:

Well, that one, that project has has already got a report live on their website. So it was undertaken by the University of Reading. And so they have a project project report, which is available through the Network Plus (N+) website, but also on the University of Reading's web page.

Jaimie Johnston:

Okay, I shall have to look at that. That's very good. Yeah, perhaps you could explain one thing I was intrigued by is how you develop these projects. Well, the surrounding context is changing. Maybe if that's the way of explaining it, obviously, that the Hub is finding things and publishing things as they're going and presumably that sort of potentially influencing what you do. So maybe you can talk a bit about how TCN plus relates to the Hub, where the touch points are and how you started to inform things that the Hubs do Or vice versa? And how will that kind of all sits together because it's all part of the wider Transforming Construction Challenge piece.

Jacqui Glass:

But, you know, one of the issues with a huge program, like the Transforming Construction Challenge, and the Hub in itself, the Construction Innovation Hub, is that there's so much to it. So you have to be actually quite careful and try to make sure that the links are, you know, sensible and productive, and useful all the way round. So, Tom Beach was foreign funded through one of our projects. He's based in university of Cardiff. And he's made a really, he already had a community of scholars very interested in, let's call it digital compliance checking. And he undertook a project with us, we linked him up with the Hub. And actually now the Hub is supporting some work going forward, that Tom is leading on, which is fantastic. We've also made connections with the Active Building Centre. And of course, you know, one of the issues with this is, when you design a big R&D program, imagine you're a policymaker, you have to sort of imagine who will be involved with it, what issues they will be undertaking, you know, projects they'll be undertaking, which issues they'll be considering. But you don't really know until all those investments are underway, where the synergies are going to be. And that's, that's a perennial challenge when you're designing big research programs. So actually, what I think is happening is we're we're making connections as we're going along, we've certainly, there's some work that I'm involved in one of the projects that I'm involved in, outside of Network Plus (N+), is also part of the challenge, and is much more on the robotics side, and the automation side. So we've actually made a lot of connections with tier one contractors, but also the Manufacturing Technology Centre. So it's actually it's quite a rich, and well, quite complicated network of so many different stakeholders who are supporting all these projects. So for me, it's almost a daily concern, and of making connections and just, oh, well X could be very interested in supportive of Y, etc. I just think it goes on all the time, Jaimie, actually, it's not I wouldn't describe it as structured and organised is actually it's a lot more organic than that. And that I suppose that's the excitement of it, too.

Jaimie Johnston:

Yeah, that was the answer the question I've never seen sort of organagram of how will these things link? Because no one knows quite how they link? Maybe it Yes. network that's got a sort of organic life its own. Yeah, that's interesting. there any any of the projects that were obviously set in motion before COVID, that when COVID, came in, went oooff? I've got an answer to some of those questions, or that suddenly became particularly pertinent. Because there's been quite a few things that, you know, we have, for instance, that, you know, some of the things we were doing around robotics or automation on site, we were doing for productivity, but then suddenly sites need fewer people socially distance, and we're going aha that's an interesting use cases or anything else. Is there anything like that, that sort of come out of the work that you've been doing, or that suddenly taken a different, you know, been seeing a different light with the changing context around it?

Jacqui Glass:

Well, I guess there's two responses to this. I mean, on the one hand, I have to say, enormous amount of, you know, I have an enormous amount of respect for all of the academics and researchers that we funded through this program, who were told that they had their funding, and they were very excited. And within a very short amount of time, we're locked down under the pandemic and had to redesign their entire research programs. But they did it. And that has been a genuine challenge across the entire university sector. So I think it's important to that, but the agility and the motivation, the perseverance of the research community is just incredible. The one specific advance actual example I'd give to you. It is a project that's led by Grant Mills, and he's one of my colleagues in UCL we funded Grants project, which is with Cranfield and Loughborough. And we we we funded them in the first round from the Network Plus (N+), what Grant wanted to look at was the connection between operating theatres, in hospitals, and how we create those. And his interesting he wanted to look at the spacecraft industry. Because if you think about the modules of a spacecraft, and I'm talking in lay terms, because I'm not a spacecraft engineer, but if you think about the modules of a spacecraft, they are definitely created off site. They definitely have ventilation issues, one might say, but actually then if we look at the cleanroom environment of an operating theatre, well, actually, here's a very interesting sectoral comparison. So Grants research then wa moved had moved along. quite long way before the pandemi hit. And actually it was at tha point that the idea of hospita development on hospita construction processes, yo know, needing to look much mor offsite construction lead needing to look much more abou standardization and moving t scale of production. So the wor that he had been doing wa incredibly timely, and has gon on to influence further wor with I think Moorfield hospital, actually

Jaimie Johnston:

yeah, my colleague, Steven Tilkin, was part of that process, actually, he input into that. And yeah, he was input in putting some of the learnings we had from work with Circle Health and some of the stuff we're doing platforms. Yes, I'd forgotten actually, or I hadn't made the connection to the mentioned when I of course we hadn't. Yeah, it was a fantastic piece of work. I remember this little video of as well explaining how it worked. And it was really good. Again, that's worth Google if anyone wants to find out more about So that's the end of part one of my discussion with Professor that. Jacqui Glass. Please join us next time when we'll continue the conversation.

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