Transforming construction: Platform design and the IPA’s Roadmap to 2030 - Jaimie Johnston MBE in conversation with Trudi Sully from The Construction Innovation Hub

The UK's Infrastructure and Projects Authority has just published its Roadmap to 2030 – a clear and bold plan to drive a step change in infrastructure performance. Central to this plan is the adoption of a platforms approach to construction.

Bryden Wood first described platform construction back in 2017, and has been developing it ever since. It will transform construction - for everyone's benefit, from reducing carbon to boosting the manufacturing industry.

Board Director Jaimie Johnston MBE is also Design Lead at the UK's Construction Innovation Hub. Join him this month as he talks to colleague, Trudi Sully, Impact Director at the Construction Innovation Hub about the IPA’s Roadmap to 2030, the importance of collaboration between competitors, and how everything in construction is changing.

To learn more about Bryden Wood's Design to Value philosophy, visit www.brydenwood.com. You can also follow Bryden Wood on LinkedIn and X.

Transcript

Credits: 0:09

Hello, welcome to Built Environment Matters. A monthly podcast brought to you by Bryden Wood, an international company of technologists, designers, architects, engineers and analysts working for a better built environment. reiden word believe in design to value to cut carbon, drive efficiency, save time, make beautiful places and build a better future.

Jaimie Johnston: 0:32

Hello, and welcome to this edition of Built Environment Matters the Bryden Wood podcast. I'm your host, Jaimie Johnston, Head of Global Systems at Bryden Wood. And this month, I'm pleased to be joined by Trudi Sully, who's Impact Director at The Construction Innovation Hub. Good afternoon. Good to see you again. So do you want to give yourself a quick introduction? Firstly, The Construction Innovation Hub and then your second your role within it as the as the impact director?

Trudi Sully: 0:58

Sure. So the Construction Innovation Hub is a government funded program. And this is four years in its current state. And we're actually just about to enter the fourth year, which has come around disturbingly quickly. And so that the reason for this program was in recognition of some of the challenges that construction industry as a whole has. And then the remit of the Hub is to actually act as a catalyst to support the industry work with government and the whole supply chain, in how we deliver our built environment more effectively. And those keywords around productivity and efficiency that constantly come up looking at means to support progression in those areas. So we work across manufacturing processes, digital processes. And also of course key is looking at things like assurance. So if we are delivering in a different way, how can we ensure that we're doing so safely meeting standards, exceeding standards and looking to future approaches as well. So we're a consortium of three organizations in the core, which is the Manufacturing Technology Center, focusing on those manufacturing processing side of things, the BRE, which many people will be familiar with the Building Research Establishment, focusing on the quality and the assurance side, and the Center for Digital Built Britain, which is at Cambridge University. And they are focusing on that information management, and all of the good things underpinning the need for data and feeding that back in. So we learn from everything that we're doing, and doing it in a more effective and efficient way. So that's sort of the the Hub in essence, but it's actually the collaboration with industry, the likes of yourselves, of course, Jaimie, but also a huge range of partners. And we have well in excess of 200 companies working with the Hub in various different ways across the range of projects that we're delivering, and also our government partners. So we work with all of the contracting departments in relation to delivery now. And they are increasingly engaged. And I think we'll be talking a bit more about that as we go on. As for my role, so yes, Impact Director. And the title comes with quite a strong onus because as a government funded program, we have a requirement and a commitment to deliver impact. So myself and a couple of other Impact Directors are focusing on ensuring that what we're doing within these projects, is actually delivering against the needs of industry and of society. And that we create an impact that will be realized. And we have some ambitious financial targets around that. But it's really about helping to catalyze the change that will change the way the built environment is delivered. So yeah, I'm somewhere between a translator, and an integrator and a comms and engagement, and a policy and strategy person and the hat changes on a daily basis gets a holistic role, which is great.

Jaimie Johnston: 4:11

Yeah, we'll come we'll come back. We'll talk lots more about the Hub. Can you give us a little bit of a potted CV? So how did you get to now? And how did you end up in this in this role, because obviously a critical role for what we're trying to do moving forwards?

Trudi Sully: 4:23

Yeah, I probably don't have a very typical background. But I think that's part of the reason I can change my hat on a regular basis. So I have a degree in Zoology, which is really useful in terms of animal behavior. And I wanted to be a zoologist from the age of eight. So it was a bit of a surprise to me when I graduated with my zoology degree that that wasn't really a career route that I was going to end up following. But I've had quite a diverse route to get to here. So I worked in environmental laboratories and research for a while and then in a sort of quite a radical change. I went to the Health and Safety Executive. So I was an inspector frontline inspector for 10 years, and covered almost every industry except construction. And I've got to say, I largely avoided construction when I was there, because although I love the industry, and we did do a lot of training in it, the guys in the construction team had a really tough life because of the serious level of major incidents and accidents that happened in construction. And at that time, that that wasn't too appealing to me. But it sort of stuck with me. And after I moved on from HSE, after doing some some policy work, I actually went to the other side of the coin, if you like for industry and worked with UKRI, Innovate UK, as was...Technology Strategy Board as it was when I joined. So from looking at some of the darkest sides of a range of industries, I got to see innovation and the opportunity for change. And while I was there, I actually started to help shape some of the funding that would ultimately come towards construction, as the industry recognized the need to do more innovations to change the delivery mechanisms. So then I I jumped the fence again and went to the Manufacturing Technology Center, who had worked in R&D and innovation across a whole range of industries as well. But we're just starting out with construction. So I've ended up working in construction by accident, Jaimie complete accident, but actually, I'm gonna go with Bob Ross quote of that being a very happy accident, because it's a brilliant industry to work in. And it's so diverse, and there's so much opportunity, and there's so much to go at that every day is most definitely a school day for me.

Jaimie Johnston: 6:58

The mental picture Ive got is that constructions is a black hole. Youve been circling it. Yeah, it's sucked you into it. So it's waiting for you to join. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, some of the most important people are those who come with all of that other experience. everyone in construction tends to come with construction baggage. So very often it's people coming from outside and going, you know what they do in other industries that that's going to help us to sort of get your head above the parapet. But yeah, the zoology must be useful on a day to day basis?

Trudi Sully: 7:28

Its a little bit further back now. But you're right. It's it's the you know, I've worked in agriculture, and engineering and woodworking and health care, and government policy. So it's, it's seeing, but all of those roles have had something to do with change, and, and improving. And actually seeing the vast array of approaches and ways that people overcome challenges is what I think I bring to this role and looking at different ways of dealing with these challenges. And actually just challenging back constantly asking the question why?

Jaimie Johnston: 8:10

Yeah, no, that's exactly what what it means. I mean, some of the best projects we worked on is where we've come into a sector we didn't know much about and going, why did you do that go? Well, because it's this sector, we always do it like that. And yeah, as soon as you start to cross fertilize things often, that's where some of the quickest change happens, where people can see that it's not you're not making it up. It has got evidence, it's been done in other industries. It's just convincing them to adopt it. So yeah, I guess you've got a sort of particular view of this, having seen some of the roots of it as well then through UK RI and seeing what the kind of how the funding came to be, because it was quite a long process to get the Hub set up, wasn't it? It took took a while perhaps you can talk a bit through that lengthy gestation period, how it actually came to fruition?

Trudi Sully: 8:52

I think in the grander scheme of things, it's been quite quick, Jaimie, we were talking yesterday about some of the the time that we've been pushing that sort of package but and so the Industrial Strategy came out in 2017 if I get my dates right, and and that really recognized the opportunity and, you know, we've talked around this before, but other sectors, other large industry sectors have gone through significant transformation in their past few decades. Where construction actually hasn't changed that much for a very, very long time. And I still haven't gotten hold a copy of it, but we're all aware of of the Farmer report, Modernise or Die and Latham and Egan, but somebody actually quoted me a line out of report from 1955 which could have been written in Farmer or Egan or Latham or or And a few other recent things. And but what we haven't had in construction, which those other sectors had capitalized on, was the collaborate, innovate ethos, which, when I came to this, I found so strange because every construction job is a massive collaboration. There's so many different parties involved working together to deliver these phenomenal buildings that we do have, but then they go away, and then they compete against each other. And that's all fine. And that's all good. But the lessons learnt from the challenges within those individual projects didn't seem to be being really effectively built on or fed back in to be able to create these changes. And I think the reason that the funding from government hasn't been there, despite the acknowledgement of the challenges going back much further than the industrial strategy is that lack of considered collaboration and overcoming those areas. So it was when the CLC, and some of the major players in the industry started to talk about how we can work together to be more effective. And of course, I'll give you a major plug here, Jaimie about the the recognition of manufacturing approaches and the platform delivery, to be able to affect change in the way that we deliver particularly our social infrastructure. So with that, and government and, you know, the there's obviously a vast array of opinions probably even in this room about government and and the wider leadership of the country. But what they are realizing is that our strength is in our built environment, and the recovery from the the times that we have all gone through over the last few years. It's very key that we have the right infrastructure to be able to move forward and investing in changing the way that we deliver that is equally important for for all of society through our hospitals, our our schools, our homes. So at last, yes, that was a long winded way of saying over the last few years, we've actually really had the recognition, we've got the backing, we've got the policy coming through now too, which is vital. And we've got industry working together to overcome those challenges so that they can then go on and compete. But in a much more productive and efficient environment, which is better for everyone.

Jaimie Johnston: 12:35

Yeah, we've talked before on this podcast about this is our opportunity to sort of join the top tables of aerospace and automotive, you know, are a bit more grown up today about when they compete. And when they collaborate, and they tend to sort of collaborate on the big challenges. That's constructions opportunity to start to do that and say, Well, if we had a more unified, consistent voice and a more consistent ask of government, we'd get a lot more help. But yeah, we've talked a bit on this podcast before about this first round of funding potentially being the sort of first bite of the cherry. If you do well, there's more where that came from. But if you screw it up, then you know, we've got massive problems ahead.

Trudi Sully: 13:07

No pressure that way.

Jaimie Johnston: 13:08

Yeah. So I think we first met, it was certainly on the Ministry of Justice Program, when we were first developing the kind of first iterations of platforms Was that your first foray into the sort of overlap into construction, because that's when you were at the MTC and I think that's the first time we met. You were starting to try and bring some of the knowledge from the MTC and manufacturing into that process. Perhaps you can talk a bit about that program and your reaction. I get the impression people from MTC turned up and went, oh, this is not gonna work. So far apart. We don't even know where to start. But I don't know maybe that's an unfair reaction. Watching you guys in the room?

Trudi Sully: 13:47

No, I think that's exactly right. And, and that that program was actually a great Kickstarter. And we can still reference back to that very effectively now. And the the idea with that was to sort of pick on a core set of manufacturing processes that manufacturing engineers proposed would be translatable and applicable to construction, if we actually delivered buildings in the way that other manufactured components or assets are. We are often criticized for referencing automotive and aerospace and get that classic quote of but we're different. And that's every industry and every company probably ever says that at some point, but there is an awful lot to learn and as we said the those industries went through these transformations they went from being delivering bespoke and artisan and through to standardization and through to mass produce. mass customization, and that journey, and a lot of those core processes are really relevant. And my biggest takeaway from that is, don't reinvent the wheel, steal the wheel, and make a better wheel that's more applicable to your particular vehicle. See, I'm going back to automotive again without even intending to, and I'm no good at analogies, I just come up with random ones. And though those core processes that we tested were a culture shock. And I think, you know, we've learned an awful lot from there. And the different industries have different cultures. And I think, you know, to start with, it's fair to say that bringing manufacturing engineers together with construction industry, that there was a certain chasm that we've had to bridge in actually finding out how to work more effectively, and how to apply those practices with to consideration to the fantastic capabilities within the construction sector to and that is certainly the journey that we've been on. But hopefully now, and certainly with projects that are actually going live, it's becoming a reality. But we need to and we spoke about this recently, didn't we that we need to get to that critical mass of proving the benefits of doing it, so that it propagates so that it becomes that sort of snowball out within the sector.

Jaimie Johnston: 16:29

Obviously, in terms of how things have progressed, you and I visited The Forge recently with them Ron Lang also from the Hub and Neil Pennell. So that's obviously the first platform project that's been delivered smack in the middle of London, it's going up very quickly, at the moment, perhaps you can reflect on your day out at The Forge, what what you saw and what you learned. And whether there's anything new, you learned about platforms that you hadn't seen from me harping on about it previously.

Trudi Sully: 16:55

It was it was great, it was so good to be on site. Again, I must say just for a... First time, I've been on a on a site for 18 months. And but it, it is one of those things, isn't it, you know, we all talk about the theory and the digital and the Virtual Reality of Things, but seeing things for real is so good. And it was just, it's so exciting to see a building now actually putting into practice these approaches that we've been developing, that we've been talking about, and having a real case study, because data and previous experience, it's actually really hard to get good information on and has been difficult for us in the program. So to have this building, that that's delivering through this model that's being so open about the challenges as well as the benefits and and the positives. It's great, because it's only once we start delivering real projects that we're really going to get the the the Intel the information, the real world issues that we can then use and and build upon and start this snowball effect that we want to create that critical mass that we talked about, to be able to actually really drive the change. So yeah, it was it was great to see it's, uh, in terms of a site, it's so accessible. It's open, you can see the progress. It's it's like, going through a story book just being on site. So I don't know you might want to start charging people. But it's, it's a really good place to see how it works in practice. And I thoroughly encourage that sharing, because I think it really helps people to realize, and not just visualize, but really experience the opportunity that there is

Jaimie Johnston: 19:00

Perfect, Ah good. I'm really pleased. you've enjoyed it. I mean, it was, yeah, we've taken quite a few people around on the site. And there's been all sorts of insights and sharings and reflections, almost everyone's come away sort of having a renewed understanding or a deeper understanding of some things we're doing. So you're right. I mean, we're learning as we're going. We thought we knew quite a lot about this topic. And then yeah, we're constantly learning but yeah, yeah, it's only through that, and as you say, documenting it, capturing it, sharing it, improving upon it, that's how we're gonna make these changes rather than everyone going well, thank goodness that's over and on to the next one now.

Trudi Sully: 19:33

Yeah, yeah, we did. One of one of the things that we were creating on the Hub is, is are these rule books, this guidance to support everybody in developing these approaches, whether it's the systems or whether it's companies, delivering them, assembling them, managing, owning them, whatever. But just from walking around and having those conversations and just random questions, there was a whole lot of Intel that came out of that which I really want us to capture to put into that rulebook? Because it's all those lessons, which really helped to shape this up? And it's just, yeah, just going back to sort of where we started constantly asking why, how does that work? Why do you do that? What's the problem? Why work? Why don't you use that? It just, it's it gets people talking, it gets people thinking differently, it gets people seeing things differently. And that's how we really create the change.

Jaimie Johnston: 20:31

Yes, on that, as you said, the Hub is in its fourth year now there's 200 people or 200 parties collaborating? Can you give a bit of overview of the work so far and what's left to be done? I think it's fair to say there's been a sort of slight shift of focus in the Hub, or the you know, where the platform design programs going, just I think, because the recognition that this is really hard, and you're not necessarily going to get everything done in the first tranche of work.

Trudi Sully: 20:53

Yeah. And I think that when we started on the Hub, we had we built into the initial business plan, that we would be working on a rolling wave, kind of project management approach. So iterations and developing through the program, I think we were actually slightly naive about the the number of waves, but we have had to learn an awful lot about how to do this. And I think certainly on the...so on the platform side of the Hub program, we started off with a position of, of knowing really from the work that you had been long developing as well, the opportunity to create and the term doesn't always sit well, but a kit-of-parts that could be delivered using manufacturing processes, and assembled in standardized environments and ways. And consistency of process would be at the heart of this work. And we started off with the concept of developing a kit-of-parts a system to demonstrate the application of that. Now that still survives. But as time has moved on, there is so much more going on across the industry with different parties exploring different ways of doing this. And so we are having to look at bigger, and other elements of the program, particularly the information management. So again, looking to how we use the information, the data that we have more effectively how it can be interoperable, how it can be reused in multiple different ways by parties throughout the life of an asset is very key to this progression. And the shape of things now has moved to where we will still carry on with looking at the processes about how to do platform and build on work that has been done and develop these these guides, these rule books on doing that so that others can benefit from the experience that has been built. But we're also looking now at this ecosystem level. So not just platform, not just off site, or MMC or DfMA, or whatever other term you might want to use, or that is in use by different organizations, but the traditional as well. And when we bring that together with some of the things that we've done, so that the value toolkit is a key output that is now being tested. And that is there to help everyone but help clients to actually make better value based decisions using consistent processes and approaches. And if we join that, with all of these different approaches to delivering buildings, we can progress, delivery now more effectively, but look to that longer term. So yeah, we've got a year left. And we do have to actually really create impact, we have to get the information to prove value in this progression. But we will recognize that realistically, it's going to be a decade or more to be able to really embed these approaches, and for what may now be parallel developments to actually share the data and the information that really demonstrates value for clients to be able to generate better value profiles, make better choices, and ultimately end up with better delivery of outbuildings.

Jaimie Johnston: 24:45

Yeah, you made the point earlier that other industries have gone through this but it was probably took them decades, we're probably going to compress decade's worth of stuff into a decade. And there's a lag time it's a lot takes a lot longer to make a building than to make a car. So inherently Many things in the construction industry quite, quite slow, but it doesn't feel like it's, I mean, just in the last five years the move, I think from, you know, the work originated for the Ministry of Justice, then the autumn statement, IPA picking up and starting to talk about platforms, and then the creation of the Hub sort of on the one hand you think, still so much to do but on the other you think but a significant amount has changed in the last five years, and all this sort of policy context is now pointing in the right way, the Construction Playbook and things. So it does feel like there's a Yeah, the background music is quite different to when we started this journey, which gives me some hope that we can leverage that and we can really start to make changes quite quickly.

Trudi Sully: 25:35

Yeah, I think so. And that actually really became real for me a couple of weeks ago. I did a webinar for the CIOB Oceania. So talking to our Australian and New Zealand counterparts, and they asked me for the backstory. And so I went back, sort of through the progression of the policy and of the the changes and the approaches, and, and then reflected and compared that to other industries, too, we've come a very long way in actually a relatively short amount of time, because we've been able to capitalize on the experience of others. And I think it's, it can be very frustrating at times, because you just you can see a lot of the opportunity, but actually bring everybody along for the ride takes those years. So it's good to pause now and then and look back and just see how much we have achieved. And the shift in policy overall is is significant. And the fact that we have government departments who have been delivering massive infrastructure programs for a very long time, but in quite diverse ways, are now really starting to come together and realize the benefits of of alignment, and that harmonization rationalization. And I think, you know, that in itself is a is a huge win for us. And we'll very much leverage the change going forward.

Jaimie Johnston: 27:11

Yeah, that's the thing I was going to come on to actually so that you've neatly framed it. But yeah, as well as the sort of change at the contractor level of getting contractors to start collaborating in the kind of industry players. Yeah, I think that the bigger one is that is the it's always client led, in our experience. So whenever we've developed these sort of things, it's always been because GlaxoSmithKline or Heathrow or Circle Health or whatever have said, I will insist on better and then the the issue will follow. So that is a huge shift. I think the fact the departments are now collaborating, they're talking to each other, you know, the context, the Playbook, the Define The Need stuff, that's massive. And I think people perhaps haven't clocked that's happening in quite the same way. But yeah, it's what happened with BIMz Governments said that if you want to play with us, this is this is the conditions. And it created that huge shift. And then the private sector said, Well, why am I not getting the benefits of that, and it just propagates very quickly. So yeah, that I think has been a, you know, the biggest sort of catalyst or the biggest change is that sort of central government thinking is suddenly starting to really shift now.

Trudi Sully: 28:10

Yeah, and departments are very, very complex, large beasts, and the through the likes of the IPA, the Infrastructure Projects Authority, and having the National Infrastructure Pipeline, so that we actually have a greater degree of clarity coming through about what needs to be delivered for who and the timescales. And although that has been available for some time, actually, the the conversations around the commonality is a very significant shift. And that some of the work that the Hub did last year, Defining the Need was really looking at those major pipelines of infrastructure delivery, social infrastructure in particular, and an analyzing what specification requirements there are already in place, the maturity of them, and then how much common ground there was. I know, Jaimie, you were very at the heart of that. But I think all of us to a certain extent, expected significant overlap, but perhaps not as much as there was with I think greater than 50% of those estates we looked at, weren't actually unique in any way, there was such such significant commonality. And yet, there's still such diversity in the way that the these programs are being delivered, which just doesn't make economic sense. And I think, you know, identifying that and really representing it in a very clear, accessible way, has significantly supported that change from the government side too because they they can very much see the opportunity To deliver greater value, and nobody, I don't think anybody in any political party, or any part of industry or any part of government would argue with us having better facilities delivered, greater value and ultimately lower costs.

Jaimie Johnston: 30:16

So better, better, faster, greener agenda. It's interesting, the drivers have changed slightly, sustainability sort of dropped off the agenda and it's back now, but consult, yet again, there's a kind of convergence of needs to kickstart things post COVID, there's a sort of reset of some of the policy, there's been the time to create some of these policies that better faster, greener now that's really starting to come to fruition, isn't it? Which, which, yeah, I mean, in terms of ongoing policy development, so the latest one to come out was the Transforming Infrastructure Performance refresh. So you mentioned the Industrial Strategy, the first TIP documents came out in 2017, around that suite of documents, and kind of set out a vision for how we would start to drive some of these these value things. The next one, or the refresh that's just coming out is I think it's moved on significantly. And it paints a much more vivid picture of how we should be delivering social infrastructure, how we deliver value to society. So perhaps you can explain some of the key things that are in that document. And we can we can talk around that a bit.

Trudi Sully: 31:17

Yeah, and I think that this is, although it can be quite a challenge just to keep up with the amount that's going on at the moment, the policy it's building isn't, and it's building in a really positive way. So the first TIP really set the scene and started the journey off in terms of how we deliver our infrastructure. But then we've got the Construction Playbook, with the policies and the the, the how to engage. And now the the Roadmap to 2030, actually really setting out these target and focus areas with quite robust requirements for government clients to deliver against these focus areas. And, you know, it's actually stated right at the beginning of the document about requiring the step change in productivity and efficiency. So coming back to those real keywords again, but it then says in the way we plan, design, manufacture, construct and operate. So it is a really clear reflection that everything needs to change, which is a little bit overwhelming. But there are there are some real nuggets, and in terms of the the context there and those focus areas that will support that. And and going back to what we're saying about leveraging the change, this very much offers the tools to do that. So we have a particular focus in there on platform delivery. So it goes beyond looking at MMC or Modern Methods of Construction or DfMA, and incorporates this more holistic, full approach to delivering differently, so not just creating kits-of-parts, but all of the process that comes with it. And that's one of our pet words, I suppose Jaimie is process over product. And that comes right from the very concept through to the design through to the manufacture through to the assembly through the commissioning, into maintenance, use and end of life. There's also the area in relation to the information management. So again, our program is very much aligned to all of these policy areas. And it is all coming together, which is of course very fortunate. But the information management mandate that is going to be driving that use of data in that consistent way to ensure the ongoing ability to be more effective in that whole life cycle yet again. So I think it's very positive, I think it's very accessible and and hopefully really does give everybody the drive that they need to be able to invest in change. And that doesn't necessarily mean massive investment. It means looking at the opportunities to align with the rest of industry or with the departments needs to be able to take small steps for the benefit of the businesses and grow from there.

Jaimie Johnston: 34:27

Yes, one of the things I was delighted to see in there. As you say, it doesn't just talk about the kit-of-parts that sort of like we're assuming there's a kit-of-parts, but it talks about that kind of wide impact, it talks about disaggregated supply chains, and therefore how we might engage SMEs or how we might lower the barrier to entry, it talks about so you say this sort of strong link between digital and physical. So once you have these components that then unlocks configurators and potentially digital marketplace and things and it also talks about factory like conditions on site. So I think there's been a sort of increasing sophistication and people's understanding of MMC into sort of it doesn't just mean off site, platforms doesn't just mean off site, I think now we're starting to talk much more about what are the real drivers. And it is that kind of better, faster, greener, less material and fewer people, higher productivity, automation and activity where it's best suited. So all of that I thought was fantastic that it was, yeah, as you say, the definition or the articulation of what we mean by a platform approach is getting more fulsome, I think, and more granular and more holistic as we go. But as you say, it's always a building, it's always aligned, you can sort of go back to the IPA document from 2018, still completely valid, it's still completely relevant. They've just added more definitions now for the impact of this and start that I think that's the interesting thing is starting to look at the benefits in the wider ecosystem that needs to change. But as you say, it's massive. It's saying the marketplace needs to change every aspect of the design, procurement delivery, you know, it's a huge task. But that consistency of thinking, I think, should be quite reassuring for people that it's not, you know, it's not reactive, they're not constantly changing the mind, all of these things are pointing in exactly the same direction, we're just able to give you a more detailed route map, I suppose we're going which I think is fantastic help to people who are sort of struggling with some of these concepts.

Trudi Sully: 36:09

Yeah, I think two extremes, we've got the risk, that kit-of-parts is becoming quite commonly used and referred to now and could almost suffer from some of the same challenges that the term MMC has, or BIM, actually, for that matter that it's used so commonly, but not necessarily understood or applied in it in its fullness. And we do need to make sure that we don't create an environment where the there's a plethora of kits-of-parts, without actually harmonizing those approaches those processes, those systems that will ensure the quality of delivery comes along with the the change of the approach in general, and building in that value. At the other end of things, we've got the risk that there is because we're talking about changing everything, that it becomes overwhelming. And people just sort of bury their head in the sand cover their ears, going Lalalalala. So we have to make sure, and I think this is you know, it's for everybody to be conscious of, but it's the sort of thing that we need to do in the Hub. And whatever comes next is actually try and articulate the route to doing all of this in as clear and an accessible way as possible. Because when everything has to change, it can just feel too overwhelming to even start. So some of the work we're doing now is very much about breaking down or maybe they were bringing together all of these different puzzle pieces. So how the Value Toolkit will then lead on to making these choices, and how the information management mandate will actually inform the development of this, and how a platform fits into this, how do you choose to go down this route. And of course, it has to have those knock on consequences to that the testing the certification, the assurance, the quality management, that the contracts, the employment, but it's again, it's not sort of a switch that's going to be turned, what's coming out in this roadmap is set out in the naught to two and two to five and five to 10 years. so that people can plan, how they want their businesses to move forward, to embrace that the opportunities that are here with a view which will be backed up from the client side, so the supply chain can have confidence in evolving their approach. And the departments will also have confidence in procuring through this way. And that that's, you know, it can be a bit chicken and egg. We talk about this a lot. But that these small steps will actually make significant difference and what won't be a very long time at all.

Jaimie Johnston: 39:20

Yes, yeah. One of the on the supply chain piece. It's quite interesting. We're suddenly seeing a real surge of interest from the lower tier suppliers that are, I think, probably smaller, more agile, starting to see how they can play in this space and say, Well, actually, that Yeah, as you get more granular, you're sort of heading in my direction. So that I think is a huge benefit is we'll unlock SMEs the way that probably hasn't been done before. And you know, this disintermediation is starting to really bear fruit. So that I think is gonna be an interesting place to play of getting more and more SMEs sort of further up in the conversation. We've talked on this podcast before about probably the tier one role is the one that's up for biggest change, the SMEs might be doing more of what they do. But doing it better and doing it more consistently, it's the kind of the bits in between the management roles that are going to change. But perhaps you can talk about some of the sort of SME engagement in the Hub. Because of that 200. A lot of these are not big players, a lot of these SME type organizations that are engaging, which is quite positive, I think

Trudi Sully: 40:18

it's fantastic and so critical, because SMEs make up a very, very large proportion of the industry, and with a massive diversity as well. And I think this is where we're going to see more disruptors coming through is from the SME side, but yeah, there's so we've got partners involved in the Hub that sort of covered the whole spectrum. So we've got consultants that are sort of one man bands and, and small companies with with people that have come from diverse backgrounds themselves, that really see the opportunity of helping the industry to transform. We've also got sort of SMEs that have got new approaches, new digital systems, new kits, that is being developed to actually support the manufacturer of products that will become part of these platform systems, as well as companies that perhaps are actually going to be the A team that the ones that can deliver and turn up at site and know how the systems work and effectively integrate to support the delivery of the built environment itself, but also sort of across MEP, across facades, all of these companies, they're actually almost the easy side of it, because most of them are already manufacturing products. So So those that are in that world, they know the manufacturing processes, and some of them actually supplied other industries already, they're used to the different mindsets, the different cultures in those environments, and can adapt very easily to this future delivery model. And I think that they're rising up, almost. And we're gonna see more and more drive from that SMEs from that supply chain side as they grow. And they invest in their capabilities because of the confidence that they'll have in the pipeline. And the opportunity to be secure in that investment. So that there's a lot of action going on there. And it's you know, it's hard to reach the SMEs, because a lot of them are still so busy doing their job, that they don't necessarily have time to look at these bigger changes. So again, enabling an environment where they can come and work in in a derisked environment to learn the the, this evolving, operating system and delivery systems is vital. And that's why things like the government funding, why research and development projects are so important in supporting that this catalyzing of the change itself. But yeah, the tier ones and the big consultancies have probably got the the hardest job in that respect of evolving their mindsets and their position for the future models as well.

Jaimie Johnston: 43:13

So in terms of building confidence in that supply chain, and you know, across all the other parties that you have to make these changes, one of the most intriguing parts of the TIP 2 was the potential for a mandate. So it says within a couple of years, well spend a couple years working out what a mandate might mean, obviously, the last time there was a big mandate, it was BIM, and it, it really did transform the way we do things. So the potential for that is enormous. And it feels like a sort of warning shots or the starting pistol to say we've got a period to work out what this means. Feels like there's enough evidence to know that it's worth pursuing. But I guess industry's got a couple of years to help shape that mandate and say, Well, what are the terms? What's the time period? What's the lead in? What's the support we need and things so it feels like a massive opportunity to help create a mandate that helps everyone rather than have a sort of thing that's foisted on you. And suddenly, you've only got five years to transform your business, and it's going to be a disaster. But yeah, then if you got any thoughts on what that means, obviously, I think the wording is specifically quite tantalizing rather than definitive at this stage.

Trudi Sully: 44:13

Yeah, indeed. And I think, you know, that this is really a very positive reflection on the work that has been done so far with as strong as a commitment as we can get at the moment from government to drive forward. And we know, despite some that might still challenge this, there is a vast amount of evidence that really speaks to the fact that adopting manufacturing approaches and processes and certain elements of standardization will deliver a significant change and great benefits in how we build our buildings. So that the mandate really just forces the arm slightly of everyone to keep pursuing this and not let it fade away. It encourages that collaboration because we have to do this together to be able to really reap those benefits. And it gives this time frame for us to prove out what we're doing, get that data to really demonstrate the opportunity, and work together to shape the next steps along this journey. So it gives us that leverage. And it does create a commitment that we haven't seen before on this front, which will go back to what we're talking about, about the confidence for the supply chain and the industry to look to change, and the government to look to build this into future frameworks, or new mechanisms for procuring our buildings.

Jaimie Johnston: 45:57

That was great. Very interesting. I'm just mindful of time. Last question for me. So we always like to throw these out to our guests and put them slightly on the spot. So given the last year of the Hub, sort of, you know, five years of change in the past? Are you happy with the progress we've made overall? Where do you think we could or should be in five years time? And what are the key? What's the key things that we really need to do to get there?

Trudi Sully: 46:21

Yes, I'm, you know, as we're talking about when you actually when you're going through this, there's a lot of work. And sometimes there's, there's big frustrations with where we want to move faster. But we have to recognize that we have to bring everybody along on the journey with us. And, and that takes iterations and cycles and developments. So yes, I'm happy where we are, would we do some things differently, of course, but that's the whole point about learning and developing and feeding back so that we can refine and look at what we do next in five years time. Well, as we've sort of just been reflecting on, we have the backing from government to progress this and no matter what shape that is, it's, it's a really, really significant thing to have that support. So the industry can have that confidence in this process. And in the backing for it to be successful, though, and that this is the same statement, I've been saying for all of this time to be successful, we have got to work together, we have to share, we have to be open. But of course, there are still competition and competitors working on this. And what you share. And what you don't is, it is a tough thing to do, because all the companies involved are still mindful of their own business requirement. But we do, again, know, from experience from other environments, that change happens much quicker, and much more effectively. And at much lower cost if you work together. So you will always be in a better position, if you work with your competitors, to overcome common challenges, to actually move forward collectively, and then start to compete on the delivery side and on what comes next. But that's that's just the the key message for me is we need to collaborate we need to share, we need to put aside the differences make the change, and then be more effective, more sustainable, improve margins, and dare I say profit to to actually be in a much better position overall, in five years time. And it won't all be done going back to you know, this is a journey. But the next five years, I think we can see a very significant shift. And that will be a very exciting time to live through. And, you know, theres that old adage, isn't there? If not now, especially given what we've been through and the realization even more that we need to change. Then when and if not us then who? Which I looked up because I felt I should. And it's actually it goes back to Hillel the Elder who was born in 110 BC. So I don't think he was talking about construction then - you never know.

Jaimie Johnston: 49:26

He could well have been - you never know. The Hillel Report back from 110. Fantastic. No, that was a great clarion call. That was That was really good. Yeah. And yeah, that kind of summarizes lots of things that we've been trying to get across in this podcast over the several months. So yeah, thanks ever so much for joining me.

Trudi Sully: 49:43

Always a pleasure, Jaimie. Thank you.

Jaimie Johnston: 49:45

So that's all we have time for. Thanks for listening. And please join us next time for more Built Environment Matters.

Credits: 49:52

Thank you for listening to Built Environment Matters. A podcast brought to you by Bryden Wood. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your favorite podcast. You can follow Bryden Wood on LinkedIn and Twitter.